lfdfirementraining

LFDFiremanTraining · Site Admin Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 20

What is everyones thought on placing pumps on ladder trucks? I know it is an ISO thing but does this help or hurt?
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Ryan C. Hogsten
"Firefighting: Still the best JOB in the world!!!"

(All Comments made by me are mine and not affiliated with anyone else. If you have a problem call me 859-494-2504, or get thick skin)

leather4ever · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

I personally don't see the need in them, at least not for our department. I can see how they would be good for a small department that don't get near the resources on a fire that we do, but for our department, it seems like a waste of money and compartment space. I also disagree with "truck" companies ever doing anything besides "truck" work, such as pulling hoselines off their apparatus, etc. Just my opinion.

Jack Trautwein, 2nd Plt.

jeremywheatley · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 1

I'm with Jack on this one

rakfireman · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

I agree. Unless we revamp the whole ladder company sop. These guys have a lot of stuff on thier plate as it is, without the man power to efficiently achieve these goals. We shouldn't add another one until we address the minium staffing. Then I think it would be open to discussion.

Rob King

hhoskins · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 13 Location: In the closet @ 13

I don't think we need any more pump capacity to maintain our ISO ratings. I don't remember how they figure your required pump capacity, but, I feel certain that our ability to move over 25,000 gpm with our current on duty engine companies is more than enough for a 1 or 2 rating.
It's pretty much up to us how we classify the ladder companies with pumps on them for ISO. I don't think there is a quint classification. Either you count it as a truck company, or an engine company that has an elevated stream device.
From what I've been told, you can count the people involved in the specifications committee or "higher ups" with influence that want a pump on the ladder on one finger. Never had to have a pump on a ladder before 2003.
We must really be careful if we ever begin to consider these as a quint concept, multi=tasking apparatus/company. That idea gets sold with the "staff it with 6 and we can do both truck and engine work with it" approach. Unfortunately, the first day you run it out the door with 3 people on it, you've killed yourself. I'd rather have an engine company with a crew assigned to it, and a ladder company with a crew assigned to it, not 2 crews assigned to the same piece of equipment.
Just my $0.10 (major's gotta pay more)
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Scotty · Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 2

As with most of you, I agree that putting pumps on ladders is ridiculous. Never forget men that this is an "Engine" mind set FD. That does'nt mean that it is not changing. However, big wheels turn slow. Name me one Major or above that is a notorious "TRUCK" man. No offense to you Oti'(We all know that you are well rounded) Guys like Bubba, Catron, Rodney, Corey, Wes, and I am sure a few others (Wheatley) have been instrumental in learning that craft and proudly imbetting it with in the LFD. Ladders don't need pumps. Apparatus space, cost, and wieght are issues in and of themselves, without a pump.

Seeing as how I got a bit wordy. I'll float you 0.25 cents

Scotty

rakfireman · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

Doesn't a truck have to have at least a 500 gallon tank to be classified as a quint? Just something I heard. And don't our platform trucks have a 250 gallon tank? I was told by Bailey that it was done on purpose to avoid the ladders from being classified as quints.

King

SammyTheBull · Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 15

From good old NFPA:

Quint:
1000GPM pump
300 gallon water tank

Miracleman · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 2

I am part of the ladder committee and I can honestly say that I too can count on one finger who wants a tank on new ladder purchases. I can understand having a pump on it as it can help with the gpm's, but having dealt with Councilmembers, Vice-Mayors, and Mayors over the past decade, I am very concerned about them becoming educated about the Quint philosophy. I believe that over time, it will be up to the Truckies to prove their worth on the fire scene. This comes through training and educating others, whether it be engine companies, IC's, or other truck companies. The bottom line is getting water on the fire. Along with that, good truck work makes that a whole lot easier. As I have told my subs repeatedly, I have yet to put out a fire with an ax or hook. But I sure as heck know how to use those tools to help the engine company put the fire out (or at least I hope so). We currently have Councilmembers who are becoming educated on how fire department work and don't think for a second that if they can save money that they won't reduce the workforce or number of engines/ladders in the city/county. By the way, any training ideas for ladder companies, please send them my way. Stay safe. Wade

firemanrob213 · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 10

ISO doesn't require pumps on an Ladder Companies or give additional points if a Ladder Co. has a pump.If it has a tank over 300 gallons it is considered an Engine according to ISO.

bwhittaker · Joined: 07 Nov 2007 Posts: 2

I guess I'll be the first to put a bullseye on my back on this one. I don't think pumps on the ladder companies are a bad thing. The number one reason they were equipped with pumps, from what I was told, was so that they could pump their own master stream without tying up an engine at the base of the ladder. Makes sense. With two 1500 gpm nozzles on the bucket, that's a lot of water flowing from 100 ft in the air. There have been instances where these ladder companies have actually gotten to a fire without an engine company and were able to put first water on a fire. That's a good thing. Put the fire out and everything else gets a lot simpler. Seeing how previous administrations dumbed down this fire department, I like seeing more options and more tools on the apparatus. I hope this is a sign that our leadership trusts us to make sound decisions with our equipment and manpower. Believe me, I still think engines should do engine stuff and ladders should do truck stuff, but every once in a while things get a little muddled. As for ISO, just because an apparatus has x amount of water doesn't automatically make it an engine. I don't think they have changed, but I know a quint could actually be counted as either an engine, a ladder, or 1/2 engine 1/2 ladder. A lot of the points are calculated from equipment that is carried. Your ladder equipment and engine equipment can be carried on service vehicles and still count. As long as the department designates it as a ladder and it meets the core requirements (aerial device w/prepiped waterway, full complement of ground ladders, etc) it will count as a ladder. If our city council people are really studying how fire departments operate they will see that the quint concept for a city our size is a bad idea. Louisville tried it and it failed. St Louis tried it and it failed miserably after much fanfare. (Of course it could have been all those Smeal fire trucks too, but hey who knows?) You just can't cover 270 square miles effectively with any less than we have now.

firemanrob213 · Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 10

Could there be a way to incorporate the pumps on the Ladders for use in primary search?I think it is wrong to do a primary search or any work inside the burning structure without a hoseline.I know that is the way it is done evrywhere,but was just wondering if we could somehow work on getting the guys doing the search a hoseline to do searches with.I know it would slow them down somewhat,but it could also save their lives and possibly the victim if found.Just an idea I have been pondering for a while now.